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All Party Parliamentary Group Meeting Cannabis and Children

by CanSS, posted 17 06 2013

Speaker:  Rupert Oldham-Reid (Centre for Social Justice)

Charles Walker welcomed Rupert Oldham-Reid to the meeting and explained that the meeting was going to take the format of a more informal chat rather than a presentation after which Rupert would very much welcome comment from the floor.

He reiterated the fact that the government are still very much on side with regard to not legalising cannabis, but also alluded to the fact that civil servants can be problematic.

Rupert Oldham Reid:

I would like to thank everyone for coming tonight.  Cannabis is not a soft drug.  Virtually everything on the street now is over 15% THC.  The Dutch are now banning anything over 15% THC and treating it as Class A.

I have worked at the CSJ for 18 months and been working on Addiction work for the past year.  I have long term experience of the problems that drugs can cause as my parents set up a rehab centre when I was six.  Iain Duncan Smith set up the CSJ (Centre for Social Justice) in response to a comment from a woman from Glasgow in 2004 who said that despite all the talk, nothing was ever done to really listen to the general public and improve things.

In setting up the CSJ, he soon realised that there are five pathways to poverty:

family breakdown, educational failure, economic dependence, indebtedness and addictions.

It became clear that when cannabis was declassified from a Class B to a Class C group, parents were reporting more and more that their children were equating the reclassification as meaning that cannabis was a safe drug to use.  Figures have shown that during this period, cannabis usage rose.

Under huge pressure from the public and the press, Gordon Brown reclassified cannabis again as a Class B drug.

Iain Duncan Smith has now gone into Government, but would like to still make more progress in dealing with some of the problems highlighted in the pathways to poverty.

The CSJ has now just finished working on the diagnostic side of Breakthrough Britain 11 and is now working on solutions and recommendations. 

Using our Alliance programme with other charities, we go out and find out what is happening on the ground and look for solutions to the problems that are facing us all.

The country is currently facing huge problems with cannabis farms.  In 2007/08 3,000 were detected.  In 2013, 8,000 have been found.  Many are run by bringing in very young people illegally from Vietnam and keeping them as slaves “farming”.

Legal highs are now a huge problem.  Their effects and the problems they cause are very similar to the natural drugs but they are produced in labs.  According to the European Monitoring Service, they are coming out at a rate of 1 a week.  They are probably the cause of the decline of cannabis use.  Unfortunately, young people are reading the word legal and thinking they are safe.  In fact, they are not actually legal to be used for the purpose in which they are being used.  They are being sold as plant food etc.  They are not legally to be taken for human consumption.

Research seems to show that there are now fewer people but they are having greater problems.  A study by Neil McKeganey showed that you are 7 times more likely to become addicted if your parents are addicts.

In 2010, this government issued a drug strategy.  In that strategy they promised to make drug prevention a priority.  They updated Talk to FRANK as their flagship.  Most professional services I have spoken too don’t seem to think that FRANK is delivering what it set out to achieve.  This seems in part to be down to civil servants blocking suggestions.  PSHE is not mandatory is schools and drug prevention is not being taught.  It is not on the curriculum at all.

There is a £15 billion a year spend.  £14 billion of this ends up in the criminal justice system.   Due to localism, funds are not getting through to the ground.  The same people end up re-admitting all the time but they are not being directed to rehab and being helped off drugs.  They are just patched up in the short term and released back into the world to have problems again.  Too often, mainstream just treats the basic physical ailments but by not doing anything to really deal with the problem, it costs the tax payer even more than if it had been treated properly.

It is also apparent, and one of my colleagues at the back has been informing me, drugs are very easily bought over the internet.  Users are able to buy chips like poker chips which are then moved from place to place and are untraceable.  They are so easy to obtain and can be delivered to your door by DHL etc. with no one aware of what they are.

The UK has the highest level of sites in Europe for selling drugs on the internet.

Public Health England organises government treatment policy.  There are 55 benchmarks to deal with.  Only five of these are alcohol/drug based.

Due to localism, schools, police etc. can choose to spend their funds where they please.  They have their own budgets and can choose their own priorities.

Northumberland  Police have decided not to make what they deem low level drug use crime enforceable as they say it will free up money to fight other more serious crime.  Acquisitive crime though is expensive to police, as are the problems caused by drug use.  In the Netherlands and Germany, they are having to open up care homes for drug addicts as they are unable to care for themselves.

Charles Walker

Thank you Rupert – you have covered lots of ground incisively and quickly.  We will now open the floor for comments and questions.

Jean de Carteret

I have a son with schizophrenia which was triggered by cannabis use.  I have heard rumours that once again there is talk about downgrading cannabis again to a Class C.  Is this true?

Rupert Oldham-Reid

No decisions have yet been made but I don’t feel that it will happen.  The tabloid newspapers are dead set against reclassification/legalisation etc. so I would doubt that it will happen.

Charles Walker

Libby Purves’s article in the Times today draws notice to the problems of cannabis.  Why is the government showing such resistance to dealing with the problems?

Rupert Oldham-Reid

The problem is that people think that they are dealing with the same cannabis as that which was around in the 60s and 70s and they perceive it as a joke. They don’t think that cannabis is a problem.

Although statistics show that the problems with cannabis are rising, the numbers in relation to the problems with other drugs are still quite small.  There was a significant rise in admissions to hospital as a result of cannabis last year to 1000 admissions.  It is very recent that this trend has been noticed.  It needs to become culturally noticed and parents’ minds need to be changed as to how dangerous it is.  After talking to my parents about the rehab they ran, it became apparent that all the patients had started initially taking cannabis and then moved on to “harder” drugs.

John Graham – Addiction Specialist

It is true that policy makers grew up in an earlier generation where cannabis was not perceived as a problem.  I was born in 1950 and the view as I was growing up was that of the flower people and hippies.  In addition to my professional work, I was myself an addict.  I imbibed hashish/cannabis at a strong level.  Legalisation will only allow more consumption.  There is a condition which develops with unlimited consumption of cannabis. It is similar to dementia where the brain has been eaten away.  This WILL happen if people consume cannabis on a regular basis.  There is a saying which could easily be applied to cannabis use – “Mesmerised moths flying to a flame will be snuffed out”.  That is what happens to many young promising lives when they become involved in cannabis.

Legalisation/decriminalisation sends the wrong message to young people.  Many of these young people commit acquisitive crime to pay for the habit they acquire and then end up in the criminal justice system.

Rupert Oldham-Reid

I would like the chance to speak further with you if possible.  Report after report released last year showed the detrimental effects of cannabis in certain cohorts.  Research has been lacking so far.

Charles Walker

There is momentum now. There have been many articles in the Daily Mail, Telegraph etc. thanks to Mary.  Jeremy Edwards and Mary Brett have had many meetings with ministers from the Department of Health, but many ministers are captured by civil servants who do not want change.

Barry Twigg

It is across the country with the devolvement of responsibilities to local government/authorities etc.

Much help has been wiped away by schools, police etc. having the choice to do what they want.  Health authorities, education authorities and Police Commissioners are all the same as they can make up their own minds where they put their money.  There is no consistency across the country and the decisions don’t always save money in the long term.

Rupert Oldham-Reid

With tobacco, restricting access, availability, highlighting health consequences and education has all together had a very strong effect on smoking levels.  If we compare that to alcohol where licensing laws have been liberalised we can see the difference.  If we legalised cannabis it would send the same liberal message and usage would rise.

Edward

I am 16 and I am spending the week with Charles Walker on work experience.  I have great respect for this APPG and what it is aiming to do.  I have personal experience of the damage that cannabis can do.  My cousin Dan started smoking cannabis very early on when he went to college.  It triggered schizophrenia and he stopped eating etc.  We lost him to suicide in 2005.  My biggest concern is that we had a debate at my school, Haileybury over the legalisation of cannabis and I was shocked that so many of my peers had no idea of the dangers that cannabis poses.  Many of them are inspired by role models such as Bob Marley, the Beatles etc. who all had a history of drug use.  What they need are positive role models of their own age who they would listen to rather than politicians.  Most young people live for the present and want to enjoy being young.  Cannabis is on an early route into many things that are perceived as cool.

Charles Walker

If Edward were to talk to his peers about his and his family’s story and what he knows from his experience about the dangers of cannabis they would probably listen to him.

Barry Twigg

Would young people listen to people coming into school to talk about drug prevention?

Edward

I personally would like to suggest a cannabis charity to support and then talk to my whole school about what I know of the dangers of cannabis and ask them to help support the charity.  I think that one of their own would probably cut more ice than someone strange coming in.

Barry Twigg

There is much evidence that something called cascading really does work well.  You talk to small groups of parents/children etc. and then they cascade the message down to others.

Rhuti

I am a recovered addict and I have been working as a volunteer for the Amy Winehouse Foundation since the beginning of the year.  One thing that really struck me when I went into one school was that one girl was crying as her mother smoked.  I assumed at first she was talking about smoking cannabis but she was upset because she knows that cigarettes can cause cancer etc.  Children and young people now are really aware of the link between smoking and death.  That is because of how strong the anti- smoking messages have been.  Up until recently, I thought that legalisation of cannabis would be a really good idea but having talked to so many young people about why they don’t smoke I have changed my mind. I realise now that being illegal stops some children from doing drugs and that barrier would go if it were made legal.  I have also become aware during the last year and my experience with other drug users that there are many more problems stopping the effects of withdrawal of cannabis than any other drug.  Skunk and cannabis take a lot longer time to get rid of.

Charles Walker

It reminds me of a saying that you can repair a septum, but you can’t repair a brain. You truly are playing Russian Roulette.

Bill Davis

I am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict.  What would have made the difference to me at the age of 13 when I first started using was someone that I could identify with.  I laughed at the police and their anti-drug message.  If you already have a disposition to addiction you are in trouble.  The problem was with me and my predisposition to addiction.

Charles Walker

May I ask why you are here today?

Bill Davis

I wanted to join the debate.  I have been a service user and now I work in prisons. 

Charles Walker

We need a swell of movement to influence the decision makers.  Honest appraisals will help.  A moving think tank like the CSJ will very much help, as will discussions like those we are having here today.   Rupert can take away a great deal from meeting you all and hearing your viewpoints and stories.

Rupert Oldham Reid

Many schools don’t report on drug incidents because they don’t want publicity or to be labelled or perceived as a bad school with a problem.  All schools have a drug problem which can only be faced if it is tackled head on.  Schools need to take on drug awareness courses.  I really like the cascading idea – it is really useful.  Parents are the most important link in this, more than friends.  Peers talking to each other are important, but so is information from parents.

Rhuti

Some children are offered drugs by their parents.  These kids need to know that drugs are illegal to counteract that and know that they are dangerous.

Josh Hulbert

In answer to Charles Walker statement that you can repair septums, cocaine is more dangerous than skunk cannabis.  The message that you are sending has to be proportionate.

Charles Walker

You can smoke skunk cannabis once and land in huge problems – it is Russian Roulette.  You do not have to be an addict with skunk cannabis to do yourself harm.

John Graham

There are some problems which are solely down to cannabis use.  With cannabis it is not about the quantity.  You can experience psychotic symptoms from first time of use.  Once triggered, you must then have abstinence.  We do need to communicate that it is a very dangerous substance.

Charles Walker

Politicians understand the problems and dangers of cocaine as they are well documented.  They don’t understand the dangers of skunk cannabis.  The problem is, for most of the policy makers, the cannabis that they know in their youth had a THC level of 4%.  They are completely unaware of the levels of THC in skunk cannabis now and the dangers that poses.  There is no safe level of usage with skunk.

Lesley Jakeman

I am Lesley Jakeman and I am here with my friend Marilyn Shaw. Together we run the Luke and Marcus Trust to support other families.  We both lost our sons to drugs – both started on cannabis.  Ultimately, when we talk to other families, they all seemed to have started on cannabis. We feel so strongly about the dangers of cannabis and the message must come out about how dangerous it is.

It has been normalised for young people to smoke cannabis/skunk in schools as well.  It is a gateway drug.  It doesn’t just stop there with the cannabis.  It leads on to other things as well as the damage of psychosis.  We wholeheartedly support Edward in what he wants to do.  We find that getting into schools is always a problem – schools don’t want to admit to having a drug problem.

Dove Gerber – The Clubhouse

Many of our clients take cannabis and alcohol.  Many end up going through A & E but will not go to their GPs for follow treatment or help.  My experience with these young men is this following signposting to get proper help.  They won’t.  The point of help need to have input to follow this through.

Rupert Oldham Reid

Some people end up in A and E over and over again.  They don’t go to their GPs and end up at A and E when they hit a crisis.  There needs to be a way of dealing with these situations and picking them up for help.

Dove Gerber

I am in A and E about once every three months with young people who have overdosed.  All that happens is a report is sent back to their GP.  Nothing is ever followed up.

Nigel Price

I am going into schools all the time now for educational talks and have been getting some very positive feedback.  As well as the health aspect, I focus on the legal implications of them getting criminal convictions which would preclude them getting visas to America, Canada, Australia and other places as well as the restrictions it could cause to their employment prospects.  They would never be able to work as doctors, lawyers, police, and accountants to name a few.  They need to know the wider implications of what they are doing to their future.  We need to give them substantial facts.

Charles Walker

There is no magic bullet.  There has to be a wide tool box and there must be diversity of views too.

Mary Brett

As a teacher, seeing grades in academic performance drop started me finding out about cannabis.  THC stays in the brain for weeks.  There has been a recent paper (Dunedin study) about the IQ falling due to cannabis use.  Students with grade Ds are four times more likely to be using cannabis than those with grade As.  It affects everyone who uses it to some extend or other.

Charles Walker

We have now run out of time so I would like to thank you all for attending and contributing to what has been one of our best meetings.